One of the crime scenes

Monday, June 04, 2007

Where's the Eggs?
Let's Get Cracking!

note from kootcoot:

I intended to post this yesterday, and though little in British Columbia is of more importance than the trial involving a railroad I dare not name (according to StoneWally), things came up that WERE important to my more immediate day to day life in God's country, otherwise known as the Kootenays. But since I had written and thought through most of it already, I am going to publish it today anyway, even though much has happened since yesterday morning. I will even pre-date it, to when it should have been posted - I'm the "deciderator" here. So if you have any problems with this little "dishonesty," get over it!

After a week or ten days break, Justice Bennett, the gang representing the two Basi boys and one Virk and Special Prosecutor (so special nobody can even see him) Bill Berardino (maybe) or his representatives gather again today to consider pre-trial motions in the BC Rail Trial. I guess there is no need to rush a matter in which it took about a year to file charges, two years to release just 80% of the information in the original warrants and apparently forever to actually achieve disclosure.

Those few of us who seem to be paying attention are on tenterhooks, hoping this isn't the day that Justice Bennett says, "enough ----ing around, case dismissed. These poor snivel servants have long ago lost any chance to have a speedy and fair resolution to these charges." My own view is that the right of the rest of the people in British Columbia to know what has been/is going on far outweighs the right of three cutout fall guys to a speedy trial. I'm confident BV and B could speed things up anytime they chose, by simply sharing what they know with the court and the public.

I also like to think that a certain "ferret" and his cronies are experiencing a bit of anxiety as well, wondering what revelation will tumble forth from Courtroom 54 next. Other than being glad this particular ferret isn't in my pants (tho he has been in my pocket), I have a total lack of sympathetic concern regarding said ferret.

The "Appearance" of

Access to Information

As one who spent part of his childhood meeting cows in the dark of early morning to extract their milk and a large part of his adulthood rattling around in a crummy in the dark enroute to the next patch of forest slated for devastation, sometimes I get up pretty early without even realizing it. Thus, this morning when I poured a cuppa joe and accessed the Court Services Website to verify that indeed the BVB Follies were on the docket, I was greeted by this announcement:

No sittings for this location

Then I realized that it was only 5:30AM and if you refer to the banner above, that this site had last been updated on 3-June-2007 at 20:00 PDT - or 8:00PM Sunday evening to normal people. But then I started wondering, a curious mind is a blessing AND a curse, why would they update the court schedule on Sunday evening? It seems to me that there would be no information available then that hadn't been available on say, Friday.

Then I had an idea, maybe they need to make sure no information is lying around left over from the previous week. The public had it's chance to access that information last week and I totally support paying some web guy to come in on Sunday, to make certain that I don't have access to any information longer than absolutely necessary. We all know that information is a dangerous thing.

Since BC Mary and I have brought the very existence of this website/resource to the attention of our readers there have gradually been subtle changes in the way it is administered. I've complained previously about the uselessness of waiting until 6:30 in the morning to find out if there really is any reason to go to Robson and Smythe if you live say, in Abbotsford or beyond. But it is even more insidious than that, or at least it appears that way to me.

When Mary and I first started referring to Wally's Website the only Court Houses on that day's schedule, with the exception of the odd error, were ones in session THAT day. Now every day, every one of 108 court houses are listed everyday, and that doesn't include the inexplicable courthouses called things like "Z008_-_Not_Valid-" or "2007 - Error." Those never seem to have "sittings at that location," I've checked. Thus to practice "due diligence" one must open every location, just to see if it is busy that day. Of course Basi, Basi and Virk events have on occasion been filed under the wrong courthouse, though in the schedule it gives the right location. However it takes patience and/or luck to discover what is happening in the Vancouver Law Courts on Robson when it is listed under Williams Lake or Nanaimo.

Is it in the public interest to appear to make information freely available to the public who pays for it and is affected by it, but in reality try to make it difficult to find and available so late and for such a short time? Don't tell me about server space. Storage space is cheap, cheap, cheap. This is the government that can build RAV and Sea to Sky. Yahoo is completely ending all storage limits with their "free" email accounts, so I could back up my hard drive there if I could bear with the upload time. Though maybe they would draw the line at 50GB or so. I haven't been able to use my 1GB in ages, and I store pics there so I can show them to people when I'm at their house.

In spite of all the platitudes the Soup Nazi mouthed about open government when he was in opposition, I get the impression that the business of our government is none of our business!



Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amazing that you have to scan through all those courthouses. It's really quite simple. One stop shopping if you use the right site, I gave it to Mary a few times so far. Go check with her.
It starts with VANCOUVER-Law-Supreme_Court -Lists Works for me everytime

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 at 11:52:00 AM PDT  
Blogger kootcoot said...


I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I laboriously click through 108 courthouses every time I might want to find what is happening at the firm of Basi, Virk and Basi. I never really expected much to be going on at a location called Z_2006_Error, but heck, how can I contain my curiosity?

Of course, on occasion when I have expected to find scheduled appearances and they weren't under the VANCOUVER_Law Supremo.....etc., I have found them under other locations (accidentally on purpose, perchance?).

I was pointing out that if you go to the link -
Adult Supreme Court Lists
, it used to only list the locations that were active on that particular day. They could list all of them everyday and mark the active ones somehow. The fact is that only a very limited number are in session on a given day (1/2 dozen to twenty usually), our local ones like Nelson or Nakusp for example not too often, and the Kaslo Courthouse is history, like so many others in what once was the "Best Place on Earth."

So in effect you have to check each one you may be interested in rather than knowing by just seeing if it is on the list that day.

I for example would like to know what is happening in the Nelson Court, if anything is, and a few months ago I could tell just by whether or not it was on the list, that day. Now I have to open it to see what is scheduled or if it simply says:
"no sittings today at this location"

Yeah the info is still there, but a little more hassle to check and there is no excuse for the lateness of the availability. In my case it is an eight to ten hour drive to Robson and Smythe. I would like to know say Friday, if I should plan to go down Sunday afternoon or really, really early Monday morning.

Yeah I can call somebody, but it would be cheaper for them to just post it on the web than to pay somebody to answer the phone, if indeed they have anybody to answer the phone much of the time. Also as BC Mary and Robin Matthews have pointed out - accurate info can be difficult to obtain even in person and one is just as likely to be sent from one Courthouse to another clerk to yet another location, and still wind up with little to show for it but a trip to the shoe repair shop. Holes is the soles are just as likely as actual answers.

My point is given the choice to share information efficiently or obfuscate, this government will opt for obfuscation 99 times out of 100, unless the information makes them look good. If that is the case their PR firm GlowBall/Canned Best(bull) will spread it far and wide and over and over.

Wednesday, June 6, 2007 at 9:32:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your point about the listings not coming up till early morning is quite valid. The rest doesn't really apply to Vancouver court where the BB&V case is proceeding.
I couldn't really care what's ahpening in the nanaimo courthouse but I do know how to find it if needed.There has been a lot of words written here by both of us. I simply told you how to get there the easies way. It's no struggle at all. dl

Thursday, June 7, 2007 at 12:16:00 PM PDT  
Blogger BC Mary said...



Let me take you back in time to 1 year ago when BC Mary tore herself away from Parksville Beach to attend a pre-trial hearing in Victoria for Basi, Virk, Basi.

You may recall that everyone expected, at that time, the trial would begin on June 6, 2006.

A diary of those events was written up in The Legislature Raids because I hoped it would help the public to figure out how to find the Basi, Virk, Basi trial. I still think it's vitally important that the public attend, if at all possible.

Lesson #1: the Basi-Virk-Basi trial wasn't happening in Victoria, as we had assumed. So I went back home and started phoning.

At one point, I was told (by Victoria registry) to go to the nearest Court House and find out where and when. They must've died laughing after they hung up the phone.

Yes, they said, go to the Court House in Parksville. Well, dl, I did that and found it had been closed for 5 years. A kindly lady on the sidewalk told me that; and she said I'd need to go to Nanaimo Court House. Did that.

I didn't need to know anything about Nanaimo courts either, dl ! It was simply "the nearest courthouse" which Victoria had told me to go to.

Well, Nanaimo (which should've known how the system works) had no idea what I was talking about. "You'll need to go to Victoria ..." they said.

And so on and on. I was even told by Victoria Registry that I'd have to telephone Sooke registry. Some said they couldn't give me information over the phone, others did give me information over the phone.

"It's no struggle at all," you say. Ha. I never did find the public access computers which they kept telling me are "right in the corridors of the Court House" (even in Nanaimo Court House!!) where I could access the day's Court Lists. Never saw one. Noplace. Frankly, I doubt those public computers exist.

But do you get the main point here? First the citizen must travel to the court house ... and then ... perhaps to another court house ... and then, if he can find those Public Access Computers, he may (or may not) be able to find out that he did/didn't need to travel to the court house that day at all.

Eventually both Koot and I learned to stay home and with Bill Tieleman's help (and HE didn't find it easy to come by, either!), we were able to click, click, click ... after 6:30 AM of the very day ... to confirm something providing we had been lucky enough to find out in advance some other way. That's still how we do it.

And I agree 100% with Koot: the process doesn't need to be this clumsy.

You with 20 years' experience boast of finding the system easy to work out. But you've often told me of the expert and exceptional assistance you've had along the way.

So why not try to help others by actually making it easy for them? It could mean that more citizens will be able to attend the B.C. Rail hearings and this would be an excellent thing.


Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 10:22:00 AM PDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Listen up folks It's not me boasting.Sure I hung around court houses a bit but have no inside track to anyhting, so let's drop the bit about boasting. I do find it fun to find things such as the Judes written procedures and passing them along to others. But they are private documents. never had to argue with anyone to find them I just looked.

The system is right there in front of us. I happen to live in a town with a functioning court house.I understand you don't. Someone told you to go to the nearest courthouse. Did you by chance ask that person where the nearest court house was located?
The local court house has helpful staff, it has a library. sure I knew where it was as I spent a lot of time reading older court decisions prior to the on line edition. Somec cases went back 100 years or more. There is a website for those from out of town. I do recall that the online edition was not going to stay around that long as a company was in the business of collecting court decisions. The deal as I remember it was the records would last for I believe two years then disappear. That is no longer the case. They go back to 1990 I think. I could check the same page anyone could check and find that jem.

Lucky for us all the system is still operating. I found the direct link I mention and have shown it to folks , by simply emailed the registry office. The return email was within minutes and by Gosh it works just fine, as the fellow said it would. Maybe someone found a court notice for Vancouver somewhere else but it hasn't happened to me. The thought entered my head as well as yours that the case may be in Victoria but I remembered the newspapers said it would be Vnacouver.And by God, that's where it is. The complaints of hard to find stuff may in some cases be valid, but let's not moan, lets go find out. I see no plot. Someone steered someone to the wrong place. Hell we used to drive much farther than that to find treaty meetings cancelled or moved. Did we stop? Of course not.

Sure we are fortunate that Bill T. is doing the court house visits and writing about what he sees.

But there are days Bill can't make it. He does have to work for a living.Bill really does a good job and I'm pretty convinced with his background , finding a court list wasn't really that difficult. hell if I can find it with a bit of help, he sure as heck could, would and did. He brings the case up on his blog, in 24 hours and on the radio. Voice of BC mentions it now and again. the NDP website does as well.see you all next month I , by habit hit the connection I got from the staffer each day just to see which murder they are covering. If others have the time or inclination to attend court and report to this or other blogs what they actually see, heck its great as the newspapers are somewhat slow in reporting within a few hours.I leave the discussion at that. DL

Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 3:28:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OOPS MADE A TYPO> The judges papers are PUBLIC not private . Silly me dl

Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 3:29:00 PM PDT  
Blogger BC Mary said...


I think you're telling me that my experience didn't happen.

Thanks for the laugh.

Oh, and Bill Tieleman was wrong when he told us he'd had difficulty ... the truth, you say, is that he's so smart he slid right through.

Gee. That's wonderful. Everything fixed now. Except that link you gave me never worked.

Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 3:52:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I sort of enjoy the way folks here like to tell others just as interested in this case that they somehow don't make the list of really informed folk. As for the link. It works for others. It works for me everyday and I don't think I have special access. why it doesn't work for you is beyond me fixing it.when you8 couldn't figure it out I treid a few times to ship it to you in a PDFformat but for some reason it didn't go anyhwere.

Bill didn't just tell you,it was a bit difficult to find, he told others, but he soon got the hang of it. If I am correct I think I sent him the same one I sent to you BC Mary. By the way, why are you attacking me on some other guys website?

I'm really sorry for folks who figure they and only they have a handle on this case or much of anything else. I do notice the limited numbers of keen citizens who don't actually post on it. This all started out when I had nothing better to do so looked this one up as koot shows up so often on BCMary's site.Read the long way it was taking for some to get to a court list. I figured heck why not help the guy out. I gave that list as I gave other bits of information,to you Mary. However since the case is on hold for awhile I guess the right thing for me to do is go elsewhere for information I sure don't get much here nor at the other contact Vive le Canada. I can and do read the headlines as quickly as anyone and have for a couple of months made a point of passing them along with the link to those articles. I don't particularly like my local paper but since it gives me links to other ones I keep paying for it . I see no sense in telling the world I don't own a TV or read CanWest. Thats the only show in town folks. For that I find I'm a nasty person.It was unfortunate you had to drive down island a bit to find a courthouse that was open. Youi must have been very unlucky to keep finding staff that don't help. I notice Robin has the same problem. Let's not forget those folks are union workers as well. Many are overworked.

I guess I never looked in any court house for citizens available computer, havn't had the need to be in a courthouse lately and there were no computers way back then in the hallways. But I'm sure if I had been told they were there, I wouldn't leave the place without somebody pointing them out to me. If as a tax payer I was paying for such things, show me them folks, and how they work. I am of the opinion that nobody is the keeper of all knowlege If I found something including old court cases I shipped them along but that has now changed. Go find your own stuff. I wonder why it is that BC Mary is harranging me on someone else's site. Why not on her own? I do hope BB&V case isn't too long but the closer to the election the better it is for those who might actually vote NDP DL.

Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 4:40:00 PM PDT  
Blogger BC Mary said...

Denis, old bean, the conversation started on Koot's site so it continues on Koot's site. No conspiracy.

Koot, right from Day One, has made a contribution toward understanding how EVERYBODY can access the court records easily.

So here's an idea how we can assist. You could do this.

Imagine a man (IQ:156) who lives in Port Hardy. He has just heard his cousin or a neighbour is in trouble and he wants to lend his support by attending the trial. He doesn't have time to jump through hoops, make phone calls, search for corridor computers, or travel to distant court houses just to find out how.

OK, so tell him how to find the place, date, time of the trial ...

and tell him there are two ways to do this: 1) by telephone and 2) by computer.

Start at the beginning and give the instructions in point form:

1. Go to blue pages in phone book ...
2. Go to ...

and then:

1. Open browser
2. Click on ...

until he's got the page he can print out and carry with him as he rushes to his car and begins the 200-mile-an-hour race down the island highway to ... wherever that court house is ... because he'll have 2-1/2 hours at best, before the trial begins.

And by the way, Denis, I haven't been in a court house since I was assured for the umpteenth time by Victoria Registry that, yes, two public computers are there in the corridor. All I'm saying is, I never saw them the day I walked around and around and around, trying to figure out if Basi, Basi & Virk would ever show up in Courtroom 101 that day (like it said on the bulletin board) or if they were in some other courtroom or what. By noon recess, I had to give up as my heart had gone into Atrial Fibrillation ... but I didn't make another journey from Parksville to Victoria with an overnight stay in a motel, just to see if they do, in fact, have public computers in the corridors.

The court house staff may be overworked. My guess is that they're also under-trained. I'm sure they weren't being unkind to me. They just didn't know.

Which means that, to this day, I still don't know how to find those Supreme Court lists from a cold start. What I do, is I have to click on the link (BC Court Lists) Koot gave me (it's in the left column on the home page ... and then it's 4 more clicks ... before the page itself comes up (providing it's after 6:30 AM of the actual day of the hearing or trial). Without that link, I'd be stuck.

Koot says that in other jurisdictions (California, for example) this process is quick, thorough, and ridiculously simple ... deliberately set up to allow any citizen even if not a genius to access the court information.

And isn't that the way it should be?


Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 5:55:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have fun, says Denis old bean.

I'll just keep on hitting the mouse once to get the Vancouver Court list, if and when I want to read it.
If the judge comes up with some new public document I will go look for it in the same place I told others where to find it.
Should I ever decide to drop in to the courthouse here in the town of Victoria I'll ask somebody to show me the public access computers. Maybe they exist maybe they don’t.

But I do know where to go to read transcripts of completed case. Some are massive files. The BB&V one will be huge when the finally decision is made.

I can read Bill's stuff without going through a filer of someone else’s reading of such stuff. I await the actual trial. I believe I drew BC Mary to the comments about the Supreme Court having access to confidential documents of the cabinet and expect the same laws apply to the BC Supreme.

It's been a grand experience sending along head lines but I don't do that anymore. I'm simply not in the same league as some folks in information passing. If I was still lived in Vancouver I would no doubt hit the courthouse as often as possible.

I don't like to argue with people on silly little points.

Prior to leaving let me say I do believe the Justice System works and very few if any judges in the BC system are crooks. I do know one was picked up for dealing with a prostitute. And I believe another was picked up driving under the influence, But heck so was our premier.

Can’t recall a Supreme Court Judge going wrong although one Appeals Court fellow ended up as a Liberal Cabinet Minister.

There are hundreds of court cases on the go and if all the information was put on line during trials the databases couldn't hold it all.And some stuff will have to remain confidential as it could hurt innocent thrid parties.
Yes the BB&V case will be interesting but does it rise over the murder cases and assorted incidental cases in process? I think not. dl

Sunday, June 10, 2007 at 2:29:00 PM PDT  
Blogger kootcoot said...

"There has been a lot of words written here by both of us. I simply told you how to get there the easies way."

If you hadn't noticed, this is a "blog" short for web log. Blogs generally involve "words." If you are looking for vlogs (video web logs) they are elsewhere! The reason I wrote the long reply is because it was obvious you didn't understand the short version, and from what I can detect, still do not. I mentioned all kinds of things in the original post which you either missed, or they weren't included in the talking points with which you were provided.

"I couldn't really care what's ahpening (sic - your spelling) in the nanaimo courthouse"

Do I detect a whiff of arrogance, like "I'm too impotentz (sic - in other words, on purpose) for Nanaimo?" Don't forget Nanaimo bars!

"I'm really sorry for folks who figure they and only they have a handle on this case or much of anything else."

I thought that was you!

"But I do know where to go to read transcripts of completed case."

Regarding this trial you might want to discuss this with Justice Dohm, Justice Brennan, Justice McBride and Justice Bennett after you read Robin's letter, even though I understand you think Mary shouldn't allow him on her blog. Does the word "GAG ORDER" have any meaning to you?

"I don't like to argue with people on silly little points."

So then, why do you continually do it?

If you don't start making sense, you will become a front page topic here.

Mary and I both started our blogs kinda together and around the same time to address the lack of information about this very important case. We didn't intend to "shape" opinion as much as provide a forum to share discussion and information. Mind you I do have an opinion, and the more I find out, the less likely I have been to change it, so far.

If you aren't being paid by someone to obfuscate here and elsewhere, then you probably are just forgetting to invoice them. Send invoices to Ken Dobell, Gordon Campbell or who ever is handling this particular message massaging project.

You, my kind or not kind sir, as the case may be, are to justice what a holocaust denier is to WWII historical revisionism.

Monday, June 11, 2007 at 1:33:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Wednesday, June 13, 2007 at 8:18:00 PM PDT  

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